In this interview with JOHN ALECHENU,
the first Executive Governor of Zamfara State, now Senator Ahmed Sani
Yerima- Bakura speaks about the recent alteration of the constitution as
well as his many controversies. Excerpts:
Your position on the
recommendation by the Senate Committee on the Review of the Constitution
that provisions of section 29 (4) (b) be deleted from the 1999
Constitution has generated public outcry. Why did you demand that the
matter be revisited?
People do not seem to understand the
issues; most of the criticisms about my position are based on ignorance.
The issue was not about marriage, it is about renunciation of one’s
citizenship. If you read the section carefully, it says a woman who is
married shall be deemed to be of full age. The preceding section
described “full age” as meaning age of eighteen years and above. Now,
removing this section will infringe on Islamic law, because Islam
recognises a married woman as having attained full age. Item 61 of the
Second Schedule, Part I in the Exclusive Legislative List of the
Constitution says the Legislative Powers include: “The formation,
annulment and dissolution of marriages other than marriages under
Islamic law and customary law including matrimonial causes relating
thereto.” To delete sub-section (4) (b) will amount to a breach of Item
61 as I mentioned earlier. Our people should understand the provisions
of our constitution.
Now to the other part of your question,
when we voted on the item the first time, I said nothing and I left to
go and pray. When I returned from prayers, I discovered that there were
two items which had been voted on but were revisited. I then raised the
issue and the President of the Senate, Senator David Mark, being a just
leader, a leader who listens, said a vote had been taken and passed. But
I insisted and he gave us the opportunity to revisit the issue in the
interest of fairness, we took another vote and we won.
People don’t seem to understand that
this provision has been in the constitution since 1979, not even 1999,
it has been there. Framers of the constitution recognise the fact that
Nigeria is a multi-religious society so they made provisions to
guarantee religious freedoms. The constitution recognises that there are
Christians, Muslims, animists and even those who do not believe in
anything.
This is not the first time you are
embroiled in a controversy over the issue of marriage. About three
years ago, you were said to have married a 13 year- old Egyptian girl.
Was she really 13?
You see, this is another
misunderstanding of actions taken in conformity with the tenets of my
religion. When I married my Egyptian wife I followed laid down
procedures for marriage in Islam. When I informed the Ulama that I
wanted to get married as is required by Islam they said they had to
witness it because this was required before they could issue a marriage
certificate. They were there, it was not done in secret; they witnessed
it and issued me a marriage certificate, I still have it. So when NAPTIP
(National Agency for the Prohibition of Trafficking in Persons) wrote
me a letter on the issue, in my reply, I attached a photocopy of the
certificate. Those who have decided to oppose anything that Yarima says
or does speak about these things ignorantly. There was nothing
Islamically wrong with my marriage.
Women groups are demanding that
you show them which part of the Quran or the Haddith you are relying on
to hold on to this position?
I will refer such people to the Holy
Quran. The Holy Quran says any married woman is of full age. That is why
the Holy Quran says any married woman who commits adultery should be
stoned to death that is under Islamic law. It is not a matter of a woman
who has reached the age of 18 years. Some Muslims are ignorant about
their religion. As far as the Quran is concerned, any married woman is
of full age. And the Prophet Mohammed (S.A.W) said, for you to be
married, there are conditions you must have attained as a woman. One of
it is menstruation. Once you start your menstruation, you are of full
age, you can marry, that is the Quran and the Haddith (saying and
actions of the Prophet) I refer them to.
The introduction of the Sharia
legal code which you championed as governor generated another
controversy. There were riots over the issue in some states but none in
Zamfara… (Cuts in)
Some people have asked what the magic
was. When you are elected as a local government chairman, governor or
president, you must have an objective. The overriding objective is to
serve the people. If you follow your personal objective, and allow your
personal interest to override the general interest of the people, they
will not like you after you leave. But if you ignore your personal
interest, desires, aspirations and lead the people based on the tenets
and teaching of your faith as well as the provisions of the Constitution
of the Federal Republic of Nigeria, you deliver the dividends of
democracy, you are very transparent, you are just and fair, they see
that what you are doing is what you said you are going to do, they will
continue to support you. Up till today, if I go to Zamfara, not only
after the last election, I have the firm belief that by the grace of
God, I will continue to win elections because I did the best I could to
serve the people in the best manner I think possible.
I recall a man who stole a cow had
his hand amputated, yet there are public servants who steal billions
but their crime does not attract that kind of punishment under Sharia
law. Why?
Sharia law defines every minute issue
that affects human life from conception, even sex, even going to the
toilet, how you enter the toilet: you enter beginning with the left leg,
you come out with the right leg, sharia law defines everything that has
to do with human life especially the life of a Muslim. It clearly
defines theft, betrayal of trust, mischief, they are all defined and the
various punishments are also defined. Under the Sharia law, if you are
my security guard and you officially have access to my bedroom or even
if you are my cleaner and I kept my money on the table and you take it,
that is considered betrayal of trust not stealing. If you are appointed
by government or you are an employee of government and you are entrusted
with funds and you took part of it, that is also betrayal of trust, it
does not mean that you will not be punished but you will not have your
hand cut. The only way you can have your hand cut is take for example,
my employee, you are my cleaner, you enter my room break open my safe
and take money out of it, you have stolen and should have your hand cut.
People should understand these things.
You have a Masters Degree in
Economics; you once worked in the Central Bank of Nigeria before you
joined politics. When did this passion for Islam come in?
Right from the time I was born. I was
born in a royal family that was very religious. I have been educated in
Islamic schools as well as conventional primary school, right from when I
was a child. Even in primary school, we had lessons in Arabic, courses
in Islamic studies up till University level when I did my preliminary
studies in the Bayero University Kano. I also took Islamic Studies as
one of my courses. I also studied Political Science, Economics and
Sociology. If a Christian for example reads whatever he reads, I expect
him to observe the teachings and practice of his religion, which is all I
am doing. I am not an extremist, I don’t believe in extremism. I
believe Islam wants you to be a moderate Muslim but moderation does not
mean abandoning the tenets and principles of your religion. If you have
to abandon the basic principles of your religion to be moderate, that is
not moderation. I am a moderate in the sense that one, I believe in
peaceful co-existence between Christians and Muslims, two, I believe in
the right of a Muslim and the right of a Christian to practise his
religion without hindrance as provided for in our Constitution. I don’t
believe in killing human beings without any just cause, I believe that
the only way life can be taken is through the legal process. If you are
taken to court for a crime that deserves the death sentence, you are
tried, found guilty and sentenced to death, the government should kill
you. Any other way is unacceptable that is what my religion says. I
don’t believe that people should be forced to renounce their faith. I
don’t believe that, because my faith teaches me that there is no
compulsion in religion. These are the kind of things; I have to practise
my belief, my faith, based on my understanding. The understanding is
what the Ulamas, renowned Ulamas not just any Ulama say. If my
conscience is not sure of what you are saying, there are translations of
the Quran in English, on the internet, on my telephone, on Ipad, Ipod,
you can download it. There is the translation of the Hadith in English,
so if you say anything that is contrary to what I understand through the
interpretation of my religion, that will not be agreeable to me.
The so-called extremists are taking
themselves out of the religion because if you go outside what the
religion says you should do, then you are going out of the religion
itself. Take for example; the religion says we should pray five times a
day, if you pray six times you are going out of the mandate as a Muslim.
You are enjoined to be a moderate as a Muslim. For example, if you
cannot fast because you are sick, you cannot force yourself to fast. You
are exempted from fasting, but you are expected to do certain things.
For example, you feed the needy, even if you don’t have the means to
feed the needy you don’t have to fast, you don’t have to feed the needy.
If you say you must steal money to feed the needy, you have gone
outside the religion. There are so many things that are said that when
you don’t have the capacity to do it, you don’t have to, for example,
marriage. As a Muslim, you can marry up to four wives if you can afford
to feed, clothe, and take care of them. In Islam, a woman should not do
anything; she should just be staying in the house if she wants. She can
work if she wants, one of my wives is a medical doctor and she goes to
work, all her income is hers, I have nothing to do with her salary. She
rose to the rank of Permanent Secretary, if she retires today she
continues with her salary for life as pension. I don’t even ask her how
much did you get this month. It is my responsibility as is enshrined in
my religion to clothe her, feed her, provide her with a car and fuel it,
what she does with her money is none of my business. This is what my
religion teaches me, women have more rights; my wife has total rights
over me. I have to give her all that she needs whether she is working or
not.
Was there a decision you took as governor that looking back now you would have acted differently?
Whenever I cast my mind back to the
eight years I spent as governor, I always thank God because with the
limited resources that I had, I think I did everything possible within
my power to utilise them for the benefit of the people as shown by what
is happening in Zamfara today and by the grace of God, for as long as I
remain in politics.
You were the only governor till date to have named your successor who was your then Deputy Governor… (Cuts in)
…One week after I was inaugurated I did
that. The Constitution provides for a governor and deputy governor and
in the event the governor dies or becomes incapacitated, the deputy
takes over and I think there should be room for continuity and if you
carry your deputy along in service, I think he should be the best person
to succeed you in a democracy unless he has some inadequacies exposed
by himself which people saw and said no. I worked with my deputy very
well; we had no problem between us. One week after my inauguration I
endorsed him as my successor. Unfortunately he decided to leave my party
thinking that it is the seat of power (in Abuja) that will retain you
as governor but he lost because the people know what they are looking
for-service delivery. And by the grace of God, I did my best and that is
why I brought another person and by the grace of God, God accepted him
and made him the governor of Zamfara State today.
Insecurity has crippled the north socially and economically. What do you think can be done to reverse this trend?
The security challenge that we have in
the north today is a very bad and disheartening situation. It is
something that all of us not only in the north, but across the nation,
should look at. It is the responsibility of every one of us to
contribute and support the government. That is why if you see the other
issue people are trying to make a controversy of is when I took Ulamas
to the President to talk to him and advise him on how best to handle
this security situation. For example, at that meeting, one of the Ulamas
from Borno State, a Professor, said your Excellency, blockage of GSM
services in Yobe, Borno and Adamawa states has some advantages because
it will not allow the militants to communicate among themselves but has a
disadvantage because you have now put a majority of the population in a
closed position. They cannot communicate with their families; they
cannot communicate with their friends, do business or even raise the
alarm in times of emergencies. Their education through the use of the
Internet is blocked and all that. Mr. President promised to hold a
security meeting to address the issue, the next day, he did as he
promised. This is the kind of contribution every northerner- if you can
contribute no matter how small to resolving this problem. I believe it
is the right thing to do. It is the responsibility of all of us, if you
cannot use your hand to change it, speak out, you don’t have to go and
address the press, you can go and advise the President on what to do and
if he does it, at least you have made a contribution. I think as long
as this security challenges continue, the economy of the north will
continue to dwindle. Commercial activities have been crippled, farmers
and Fulani herdsmen have been clashing, several lives are being lost. I
hope government will continue to do what it should do to solve this
problem. There are several countries that have faced worse challenges
than we are facing today. The civil war for example was worse than what
we are going through today. I believe that by the grace of God we will
surmount these challenges.
What do you have to say to
Nigerians who say the North must get the Presidency in 2015 and
Southerners who say it is Jonathan or nothing?
They are all ignorant about democracy
and they are all talking nonsense. In democracy, and politics it is the
political parties and the electorate that decide who should be a
candidate or should be elected. If a party presents a candidate and you
don’t like him, you vote him out. It is not by shouting: No, I want a
northerner, I want Southerner, I want Ijaw and if the Ijaw man does not
win, hell fire will come, if a northerner is not President, the country
will break. Let us follow the constitution, let us follow the democratic
channels and express our opinions, some of these pronouncements are
just overheating the system, creating unnecessary enmity.
If the All Progressive Congress is
registered, it will present its own candidate, the Peoples Democratic
Party will present its own candidate, then the majority of Nigerian
voters will decide who should be President. People say people rig, it is
only when the people allow rigging that it will take place. If you are
committed politically and you believe in what you are doing, you will
do what we did in Zamfara. In Kano in 2003, PDP lost to ANPP when
Shekarau became the governor. It happened in Zamfara, so also in Borno
State, the late governor Mala Kachalla left ANPP, moved to AD at that
time and Sheriff became the governor. As far as I am concerned, what we
need is to continue to live together as one indivisible nation as
enshrined in our constitution and the only way to acquire power should
be through the constitution.
Considering the antecedents of
some of the leading figures in the APC and the tense relations some of
you ex-governors had with Nuhu Ribadu as chairman of the Economic
Financial Crime Commission, do you see the proposed party succeeding?
It had been said that we cannot come
together because we will not agree even to have a name, Constitution or
have a manifesto or logo. Later they said, leave them, when they try to
set up their caretaker committee, they will not be able to do that and
we have all come together in spite of all these differences and we have
become APC. I want to assure you that because our constitution
recognises internal democracy as the only way which candidates will
emerge for either political offices or party offices, I think once our
constitution is adhered to, APC will form the next government.
Will you run for the Presidency in 2015?
In 2007 I came out to contest for the
ANPP ticket but I stepped down for General Muhammadu Buhari, not because
of pressure from people but because I believed he was a better
candidate than myself. If tomorrow he is interested, I will not be
interested. The only way I will contest is if General Buhari says no, I
am not running. If Buhari is running, I am his supporter, I will
campaign for him, I will endorse him.
@punch
